france bans muslim burqas

[[SoW] Lucky_Saint-]

interesting read...posted this for how intruiqing a read it was please keep remember to keep religious and political views out as this is cuttin it close to that.

 

(Sept. 14) -- Following the lead of the National Assembly, the French Senate today voted overwhelmingly to ban full Islamic veils in public. The final tally was 246 in favor of enacting the new law, and one legislator voting against it.

 

In July, the National Assembly voted 335-1 to pass the law, which bears the formal name "Forbidding the Concealing of the Face in the Public Space." Al-Jazeera reported that the text does not actually contain the words "veil" or "Islam."

 

Today's move, however, is clearly directed at the relatively small number of Muslim women who opt for covering their faces with full veils or garments such as burqas. French President Nicolas Sarkozy, who supports the new law, has said that women who wear the burqa are "not welcome" in the country.

 

Islam is France's second-largest religion, and the new law is expected to set off a new wave of controversy. Critics claim the restriction is a violation of individual rights that will keep observant Muslim women from leaving their homes rather than go outside without facial covering. The law's advocates maintain that it will prevent men from forcing their wives, sisters and daughters to wear the veil, which many regard as a symbol of submission.

 

Legal challenges to the proposed law will be heard by the country's Constitutional Council, and some within the government are already arguing that the law is unconstitutional.

 

When will the new law go into effect?

If not overturned by French courts, and legal challenges are expected, the law will begin being enforced in six months' time, after a period of "education" during which authorities will notify women of the new law and its repercussions, the Sydney Morning Herald reported.

 

What is the punishment for wearing a burqa?

According to The Associated Press, women who violate the new law face a fine of $195, mandatory classes in French citizenship or a combination of both. In addition, men who are found to force women to fully veil their faces could be fined $39,000, and could receive up to a year in prison if the female in question is a minor.

 

Is France the only country seeking to ban the burqa?

Turkey banned all Muslim head scarves at universities in 1997 and has since loosened the restriction to those that cover the neck and face, the BBC reported, including the burqa. Egypt and Syria also recently banned burqas at their universities. Spain and Belgium are currently considering passing similar laws.

 

Which types of veils are not allowed under the ban?

Under the new law, both the niqab, a facial scarf with a separate head covering, and the burqa would be outlawed in public spaces. According to estimates, roughly 2,000 women out of France's estimated Muslim population of up to 6 million wear such veils, the BBC reported. The law does not ban the hijab, a head scarf that leaves a woman's face uncovered.

[Red0ctobeR]

Leave it up to france to completely segregate a race and their beliefs.

[Crusty_Demons]

Posts like can be difficult to keep in check but we're adults here for the most part.. Right? It's not about France segregating a race and their beliefs. It's about a Nation completely losing it's identity. There are Muslims immigrating to France in huge numbers and they are feeling as though since they have such large numbers that they can start to impose there own beliefs and laws (sharia law) on the Nation. This story is about a nation struggling to keep it's identity. All countries have immigration but France is dealing with a problem in that it's immigrants refuse to assimilate and instead want to make the country their own. It's a hot potato in France and this is just the beginning.

Edited September 15, 2010 by Crusty_Demons

[lX-WOLF-D0G-Xl]

well since france is doing it we should just ban sombreros

[HippieChik]

lX-WOLF-D0G-Xl;816556']well since france is doing it we should just ban sombreros

 

As per Crusty's quote, apples to apples would not be banning sombreros but instead requiring all immigrants to learn to speak English instead of changing America to fit the needs of those immigrants and having all AMERICANS choose between English and Spanish everytime we're at the ATM or on the phone with some kind of customer service. If retaining France's identity is truly the goal, I'm all for it and think we should follow suit. Immigrants move INTO a country and should assimilate to that country, not the other way around.

[[-VR-] Tool_Minion]

I am pro-american, and believe that their are some limitations to what we should and should not allow. I don't WANT to see a mosque by ground zero REGARDLESS if we find out the funds for it are completely legit...but I do want to compare this to another terrorist group thats home grown...the KKK.

 

We don't ban their masks do we?

 

Nuff said.

[[SoW] Lucky_Saint-]

i am completely with you hippie i feel countries should keep there identity America will follow suit soon enough its just interesting to see these kind of changes in europe but i believe its for the best

[HippieChik]

i am completely with you hippie i feel countries should keep there identity America will follow suit soon enough its just interesting to see these kind of changes in europe but i believe its for the best

 

Additionally, no one has pointed out the fact that the article states that Egypt, Turkey, and Syria ban them at their universities. So France isn't the ONLY country to ban them. The fact that Egypt and Syria ban them is MORE shocking to me than the French ban. Also, I wonder why they are banned in universities???

[HippieChik]

Tool_Minion;816558']I am pro-american' date=' and believe that their are some limitations to what we should and should not allow. I don't WANT to see a mosque by ground zero REGARDLESS if we find out the funds for it are completely legit...but I do want to compare this to another terrorist group thats home grown...the KKK.

 

We don't ban their masks do we?

 

Nuff said.[/quote']

 

The mosque near ground zero is just insensitive. That to me is no different that using the n-word. They both have negative connotations and remind people of a terrible time in our country's history. Simply put, it's just bad taste to do so.

 

Now if our country was being overrun by the KKK, and the US was being seen as a racist nation, then I have no doubt those hoods would be banned.

 

What I would like to know is the definitive reason for the French ban. I've read a few different reasons, but most state that it's about human rights for women and equality. From what I have read, the burqa has been a symbol of oppression and religious extremism, used by fundamentalist men to oppress women. If this is indeed the reason for the ban, then I am all for it.

Edited September 15, 2010 by HippieChik

[Prane]

I guess I'm in the minority in that I think the law is ridiculous. This is a huge slam of the right of Muslim people. Regardless of what France thinks and how this will liberate women(which I guarantee isn't their main goal) this violates the culture of millions of French Citizens. Assimilation is not always a good thing. Where does the line get drawn? Was it good when Native American children were shipped off to assimilation schools and forced to disown their own language and culture or face punishment. This is only going to disparage Muslim women. Women will choose not to leave their homes, or face the possibility of repercussions from family members. It is thought processes like this that lead to the extinction and loss of culture.

[[-VR-] Tool_Minion]

I for one wouldn't be overly sad if the muslim religion floundered....call it plain ol menace, but the particular religion in question seems to me is basically a slap in the face to anyone who believes anything different than them....

 

Everyone should just convert to Hinduism, and we wouldn't have anymore issues.

[lX-WOLF-D0G-Xl]

maybe they are following Disneyland rules? they sent a women home for wearing one. Although they did give her a costume that would keep herself concealed, she refused to wear it, but that's another story and i think there is a Disney Paris; sooo maybe Disneyland is taking over the world?

[[SoW] Lucky_Saint-]

lX-WOLF-D0G-Xl;816567']maybe they are following Disneyland rules? they sent a women home for wearing one. Although they did give her a costume that would keep herself concealed' date=' she refused to wear it, but that's another story and i think there is a Disney Paris; sooo maybe Disneyland is taking over the world?[/quote']

 

o god you just created the walt disney conspiracy.LOL

[Crusty_Demons]

The mosque near ground zero is just insensitive. That to me is no different that using the n-word. They both have negative connotations and remind people of a terrible time in our country's history. Simply put, it's just bad taste to do so.

 

Now if our country was being overrun by the KKK, and the US was being seen as a racist nation, then I have no doubt those hoods would be banned.

 

What I would like to know is the definitive reason for the French ban. I've read a few different reasons, but most state that it's about human rights for women and equality. From what I have read, the burqa has been a symbol of oppression and religious extremism, used by fundamentalist men to oppress women. If this is indeed the reason for the ban, then I am all for it.

 

It will take some heavy research to dig to the bottom of this one. This is a political and cultural hot potato.

 

@Prane how do you know they are citizens and not on Visas or something else? To compare this to the native Americans is wrong in my opinion. Those were different times nation building times it was common for countries to take over other countries. North America wasn't even a country it was just wide open land with some people on it. Was it right and were the enemy always treated right? No but no one cared it was about conquering the world. Those were different times

 

There are probably plenty of places where a woman can wear a burqa if she chooses or is required to but they are fleeing those places because there are constantly rockets falling and bullets flying. France is and has been exploited for it's lax immigration policies and now it is paying the price by trying to correct it. There are probably plenty of muslim women that want to wear that burqa or maybe they don't who knows they aren't allowed to talk to anyone... I think this is one of those you have to be there kinda things to understand the situation properly.

[willywonka159]

Now if our country was being overrun by the KKK, and the US was being seen as a racist nation, then I have no doubt those hoods would be banned.

 

 

I'm sorry, but even if the KKK was overrunning the country, banning their hoods would be unconstitutional.

 

(Not that I support the KKK, of course.)

Edited September 16, 2010 by willywonka159

[HippieChik]

willywonka159;816578']I'm sorry' date=' but even if the KKK was overrunning the country, banning their hoods would be unconstitutional.

 

(Not that I support the KKK, of course.)[/quote']

 

How is that unconstitutional? What would that violate in the constitution?

[[SoW] Lucky_Saint-]

freedom of expression??

[IRISH BULL]

IMO, this has nothing to do with religion. "Although cultural and NOT of Islamic teachings, face covering veils have become linked to Islam and its followers."

 

This has to do with a certain group oppressing women and France is trying to stop that practice in their country. And I'm all for that. I'm against any religion or group that views women as lesser people.

[[SoW] Lucky_Saint-]

IRISH BULL;816595']IMO' date=' this has nothing to do with religion. "Although cultural and NOT of Islamic teachings, face covering veils have become linked to Islam and its followers."

 

This has to do with a certain group oppressing women and France is trying to stop that practice in their country. And I'm all for that. I'm against any religion or group that views women as lesser people.[/quote']

 

to bad there arent highfives anymore or you woulda just got one

[CDBS14]

The mosque near ground zero is just insensitive. That to me is no different that using the n-word. They both have negative connotations and remind people of a terrible time in our country's history. Simply put, it's just bad taste to do so.

 

Now if our country was being overrun by the KKK, and the US was being seen as a racist nation, then I have no doubt those hoods would be banned.

 

What I would like to know is the definitive reason for the French ban. I've read a few different reasons, but most state that it's about human rights for women and equality. From what I have read, the burqa has been a symbol of oppression and religious extremism, used by fundamentalist men to oppress women. If this is indeed the reason for the ban, then I am all for it.

 

 

1. It is not a mosque, it is a recreation center, there is a praying area on the top floor.

2. It is not on ground zero, it is like 4 blocks down from ground zero.

 

Back on topic, France has been pushing for these kind of laws for quite some time, there were riots back in 2008 because muslims were not allowed to pray and other bans on RELIGION as a whole, not just Islam.

 

I honestly do not see a big deal with it, you are moving into THEIR country, THEIR laws, if you do not like it leave. I mean what is the point of complaining? The french are already giving you FREE HEALTHCARE (some of the best in the world), FREE EDUCATION, A GOOD PAYING JOB (IF YOU ARE UNSKILLED OR UNEMPLOYED), possibly communal housing near a farm. I mean WTF IS THERE TO COMPLAIN ABOUT?

 

When you got off the plain in Paris you probably had nothing, France has always been a European nation with great nation pride and it will do anything to keep it that way, not to mention the French and the Islamic religion had clashes since the time of the Ottoman empire.

[CDBS14]

How is that unconstitutional? What would that violate in the constitution?

 

Theur freedom of "expression" which is loosely defined, in reality you are violating their rights to privacy, their rights to property and their right to hold assembly (gather in groups). Many states have banned the hood because they have provided sufficient evidence that "The KKK hood is a symbol of hate, oppression, and endanger of welfare to others"

 

The thing is many KKK or Neo-nazi groups have lately come together under a religion, they are extreme christian groups (loosely defined as that). So they use freedom of religion and press to get away with it.

[CDBS14]

freedom of expression??

 

Not in the constitution (you are confusing it with freedom of speech)

 

Come on, you guys got to check up on your law more.

[HippieChik]

Not in the constitution (you are confusing it with freedom of speech)

 

Come on, you guys got to check up on your law more.

 

 

 

That's what I was getting at. I didn't want to assume what was meant when whoever said it was unconstitutional. So I was waiting for him to say that and then I was gonna slam him! lol! BTW, I don't see being able to wear a hood as freedom of speech and you are correct, most people do confuse that with freedom of expression which IS NOT in the constitution.

[CDBS14]

That's what I was getting at. I didn't want to assume what was meant when whoever said it was unconstitutional. So I was waiting for him to say that and then I was gonna slam him! lol! BTW, I don't see being able to wear a hood as freedom of speech and you are correct, most people do confuse that with freedom of expression which IS NOT in the constitution.

 

It can be argued in favor of freedom of speech.....just like people who wear "CHE" t-shirts, or any other shirt with a political message. Some say that the KKK hood represents their political message and ideology, in a sense it is their way of speech, a symbol of their group. It is up to the judge and jury to decide whether is represents freedom of speech or not. =D

 

I am just looking at it both way of the argument, i am not going to put my opinion here on the matter because things here get heated quickly, specially against me. lol =D

 

I also like debating, so i am really liking this thread.

Edited September 17, 2010 by CDBS14

[HippieChik]

It can be argued in favor of freedom of speech.....just like people who wear "CHE" t-shirts, or any other shirt with a political message. Some say that the KKK hood represents their political message and ideology, in a sense it is their way of speech, a symbol of their group. It is up to the judge and jury to decide whether is represents freedom of speech or not. =D

 

I am just looking at it both way of the argument, i am not going to put my opinion here on the matter because things here get heated quickly, specially against me. lol =D

 

I also like debating, so i am really liking this thread.

 

It is fun to debate things like this. I have my opinions, but they are subject to change upon hearing a compelling argument.