Covert-OPs_

I did not play MW2 last night unfortunately. As far as providing proof is concerned, it's your prerogative to support your position with facts or not. My only issue with your portrayal is that you did not provide any facts. From my position all you have done is introduced your "feelings" into what sounded like a statement of fact. What you think and what is are two different things. Just like the segment of TOU that wants to play 3rd person, just because they like it better doesn't mean that everyone feels the same way. If you're insulted by my request for you to substantiate your claim or feel that I should do the leg work for you, then that's a problem for you to figure out not I. My point isn't that the GB community wants a 3rd person ladder, rather that your statement below does not ring true for what I've been seeing.(FYI the vote for a 3rd person ladder on that site is now at 92.71% in favor of it although the vote count is still low overall) When you say "overwhelming majority" all I wanted to know was how you got to that conclusion. Is it your opinion that the "overwhelming majority" DO NOT want to play 3rd person or is it that you have statistical data that you've collected over a significant period of time to substantiate your claim? At any rate I think there could be multiple events for this game. The developer has obviously given competitive gaming communities the opportunity to create different kinds of events(which is great). I have not once said that UF should not offer both or a mixture of both. If that is what you have understood from any of my posts then you should re-read them because that has not been stated. *It's a basic debate strategy to mix statements of fact with opinions as to shape the direction of the discussion. Which is why I am a stickler in these kinds of discussions, if it's an opinion I like to know that clearly and if it's a fact I like to analyze it for myself. Which can be frustrating for some that try to do the above and I realize that. My intention is not to offend you, however I do realize it may annoy you.*

Ok there is a problem with this. Sentry guns. What if you shoot a sentry gun with an rpg right when it was planted and it kills the sentry gun planter? The gun is a machine. Again if your rocket kills the planter your team forfeits i don't understand why this is a hard concept. If your rocket for any reason kills a member of the other team your team loses so there needs tobe a certain level of skill an care when your shooting at something not this whole everybody runs around shooting rockets off at each other madhouse. If your afraid your rocket will kill the sentry gun planter then just shot your gun or run up an knife it an covert's right maybe only stinger rockets should be allowed they only lock on to airsurport. It isn't hard to understand, your original statement to not account for what I explained about "lock-on". Regardless, I do not agree with what you're saying, rockets and grenade launchers are two different animals. Using a rocket leaves you exposed for significantly longer than grenade launchers so you're taking a significant risk when equipping them. Furthermore, the trajectory of a rocket is very different than that of a grenade launcher which reduces it's effectiveness. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, I just happen to disagree with what yours on this matter. I went back today to test "lock-on" and the Javelin allows you to lock on to any solid non-moving object, whereas the stinger does not. Just an FYI, I'd like to make sure I get my facts straight.

Why not make it so that the only rockets allowed are "lock-on" enabled rockets? I've tried every rocket in the game(while testing) and there are 3 that will not allow you to shoot at people. They require lock-ons, so if you ban the rest and allow those 3 then you're golden and you don't have any gray areas in that area. I still don't agree that all the other settings should remain the same but as far as rockets are concerned I think this should solve your problem.

I'm not saying that you're wrong(yet) but I just don't understand how you can state something like this. Do you know for a FACT that "the overwhelming majority" of MW2 players are NOT playing 3rd person? If so could you please include the statistics and cite them? If not then I don't see how you can even make a claim like that with any confidence. Whether or not you believe me doesn't matter. The fact is this game has a following which is FPS its always been that way and I don't need to provide you anything to prove that. If you want to look for yourself in the online lobbies you can see how many players are playing each mode, that should be all the evidence you need. I'm not talking about your clan or clans here im talking about the millions of people that have followed this game for years. If UF wants to grow into more than socom, it needs to support what the overwhelming majority want. That's my exact point, it shouldn't be about believing you. I'm asking you for facts to back up what only sounds like an opinion up to this point. I do agree that COD's roots are in the FPS genre(I would have to be a fool not to) but some of your statements up to this point have been matters of opinions represented as facts. If you're going to do that then 10 times out of 10 I'll ask you to prove it. Whether you want to or not is a different story, I'm just trying to get the facts and not get mired down in what people "think" is popular or unpopular. In an effort to collect some data I created a poll on the GB forums asking whether or not there should be a 3rd person ladder. So far 85% of the votes are for a 3rd person ladder(there aren't that many total votes yet). Every community is different and some could make the argument that GB has some of the most hardcore gamers around because of their professional affiliation to MLG. I think that could serve as a litmus test to how some of the hardcore MW2 fans think about the evolving franchise. Anyway, most of my conversations follow a logical path and I prefer to speak in detail about facts rather than how you "feel" about things. That may sound rude but the truth is that I don't care about feelings, my only concern is that my clan can participate in the best possible competitive event around.

I actually thought about that cap issue and jumped on the game just to test it. My thought was that if you let someone get 5 flags on you then you deserve to lose(LOL). But seriously, ultimately I thought having a cap would just make it so that everyone knows if you allow those 5 you're going to lose. I just don't see the switch sides as that big of a deal on that mode. From what I've seen so far the maps are all laid out evenly almost like big squares but I can see where you're coming from. The cap on the flags isn't something that I think is a huge deal, if it was just left unlimited and just time based I think you achieve the same goal. As for the setups, there is going to be no way to just leave it as IW has set for each of those modes. If they go with Hardcore settings you'll never be able to capture that aspect of the game while playing normally because HC is only available on two modes(on the game play list). So at some point you're going to run into a problem when it comes to the settings.

I'm not saying that you're wrong(yet) but I just don't understand how you can state something like this. Do you know for a FACT that "the overwhelming majority" of MW2 players are NOT playing 3rd person? If so could you please include the statistics and cite them? If not then I don't see how you can even make a claim like that with any confidence.

I've found that enjoy both very much, I do very well in both setups(statistically speaking). In my clan there are some people that HATE 3rd person and then I have others that just LOVE IT. IMO IW made a smart decision by including it in the game, they've broadened their audience and if nothing else I'm happy to see that they called something "tactical" about their game. Which is something that they were very adamant before the release of COD4 that the game would not be. As I stated previously in this thread I think it would be a great idea to incorporate this in some way. Right now from the research I've done there is no competitive arena that is offering anything in 3rd person. Which could mean that UF would have that "genre"(for lack of a better term) cornered.

Correct because it's a bug in the system, I've had this discussion on the beta forums and as of right now it's something that Zipper is considering expanding. However, it will not be available at launch and it is only something that MAY come a few months after the fact. Which for me means this game is dead even before it arrives.

This is a good point, I think it makes sense.

Just for clarity could you explain what you mean by "respawn radar"? Are you saying you'd like to have radar switched to "always on"? If so I'd have to say that IMO it's probably the idea I like least for any competitive match next to a sanctioned team kill theme night!

This is a very good point, which is why I changed my stance on the settings when I made my initial "recommendations" within this thread. Which is saying a lot because in the poll about two months ago I voted for Hardcore and made some pretty strong statements for Hardcore Only. Maybe the UF admins would consider putting up a new vote for Hardcore or Normal settings? I have a sense that the results would be dramatically different now that we've all played MW2.

This would be a total disadvantage to the defending clan, if anything the defending clan should have the choice as it's their territory. Besides that, COD is a FPS if we wanted to play a third person shooter we would stick with Socom. If it was ONLY a FPS then they would not have included the Third Person option. Now the roots of the game may be FPS but for you to say it's an FPS is not a factual statement. As for how attacks work, some would say playing at night is a disadvantage to the defending clan. Some clans play better at night then during the day(as an option) which would be a parallel to my suggestion. Some clans may perform better FPS than TPS, this isn't anything new to how attacks/defenses work in the UF community. I knew it wasn't likely to be a popular idea which I made sure to state initially. But the direction you've take your argument in doesn't make much sense. I never said it was "ONLY" a first person shooter, I was referring to its roots like you mentioned. Which in my opinion is what makes a game. For example if they added a FPS view on socom to CERTAIN game modes, the game would still be considered a TPS. Its what the game was built on, its the way the game should be played. As far as the attack/defense option, look at it like this, your defending a specific area you are allready fortified in that position. You have the advantage of the area it should be your choice if its being considered as an option. It is drastically different then night or day, its two different styles of game play. It's not something I personally would ever like to see in a tac map, but possibly a Black theme night. It wasnt an argument it was just my opinion which I'm entitled to, to whom it makes sense to is their own opinion. Understood and like I said in my initial post about it and in my response to you, I expected people to not agree. My response to you was just a FACTUAL one, it's not a FPS only anymore. And as for your Socom comparison, there was a time when Socom supported both FP and TP. But I do understand what you're saying as far as it's roots. My opinion however is that it would be a waste to not take advantage of the diversity that IW has now given competitive communities. The night/day stuff I think is as close as to a parallel as you can get. But again I expect people would disagree with me.

This would be a total disadvantage to the defending clan, if anything the defending clan should have the choice as it's their territory. Besides that, COD is a FPS if we wanted to play a third person shooter we would stick with Socom. If it was ONLY a FPS then they would not have included the Third Person option. Now the roots of the game may be FPS but for you to say it's an FPS is not a factual statement. As for how attacks work, some would say playing at night is a disadvantage to the defending clan. Some clans play better at night then during the day(as an option) which would be a parallel to my suggestion. Some clans may perform better FPS than TPS, this isn't anything new to how attacks/defenses work in the UF community. I knew it wasn't likely to be a popular idea which I made sure to state initially. But the direction you've take your argument in doesn't make much sense.

Makes two of us...a game that holds 256 players but only supports 8 player parties is a no go in my book.

I just hope we're not going to have a "sanctioned team killing night".

This might not be a popular idea but it's something I just thought of. What if the attacking clan gets pick on whether or not the match is played in First Person or Third Person?

Team Deathmatch - Don't care much for the unlimited lives if your going to disable the "Kill Cam". The UF used a set number of lives for Team Deathmatch and that worked out pretty good. I would like it to stay that way. And and don't remember the set up but it was longer than just 10 minutes. I like that idea, as long as Kill Cam is DISABLED. I don't follow what you're saying, multi-bomb means everyone has a bomb. And I definitely think that should remain disabled. Agreed.

I have always been for hardcore because I felt that it was where competitive matches needed to be played. However with the new kill system I think regular is just as good. I'm very pleased with the way the game plays and haven't found many issues. I'm going to sit down and put together exactly the setup I'd use for wars while I'm looking at them individually. What I will say is that death streaks should ONLY BE ALLOWED as CopyCat. I would say to disable them but you can't. To have anything that rewards a LOSER in a competitive match is ridiculous! It goes against my principles and something that upsets me just knowing it's in the game! _________________________________________________ Team Death Match Setings: Time: 10 Minutes Score Limit: 10000 Points Number of Lives: Unlimited Respawn Delay: 5 Seconds Max Health: Normal Health Regeneration: Slow Kill Cam: Disabled Spectating: Team Only Wave Spawn Delay: None Force Respawn: Enabled Radar Always On: No Friendly Fire: On Headshot Only: Disabled Perks: Enabled KillStreak Rewards: Enabled Hardcore Mode: Disabled 3rd Person: Disabled Perks, Killstreaks, Hardcore & 3rd Person settings could be used for "theme nights". So whether they're disabled or enabled could be part of what normally is laser tag night or what I've called "It's ok to team kill night"(I won't get started on that). Below I've done the other modes but just their specific settings that are not part of the basic ones above. Search & Destroy: Round Length: 3 Min Bomb Timer: 1 Min Plant Timer: 5 Sec Defuse Timer: 7.5 Sec Multi Bomb: Disabled Score Limit: 4 Points (Could be more to setup something like Socom) Round Switch: Every Round Number of Lives: 1 Life Respawn Delay: None Max Health: Normal Health Regen: None Kill Cam: Enabled Sabotage: Time Limit: 20 min Bomb Timer: 45 Sec Plant Time: 2.5 Sec Defuse Time 5 Sec Shared Bomb Timer: No Number of Lives: Unlimited Respawn Delay: 7.5 Sec Max Health: Normal Health Regen: Slow Kill Cam: Disabled Domination: Time Limit: Unlimited Score Limit: 200 Pts Number of Lives: Unlimited Respawn Delay: 5 Sec Max Health: Normal Health Regen: Slow Kill Cam: Disabled Capture the Flag: Time Limit: 10 Minutes Score Limit: 5 Points Number of Lives: Unlimited Respawn Delay: 5 Seconds Max Health: Normal Health Regen: Slow Kill Cam: Disabled Demolition: Time Limit: 3 Min Round Switch: Every Round Bomb Timer: 45 Sec Plant Timer: 5 Sec Defuse Timer: 5 Sec Extra Time: 2.5 Min Number of Lives: Unlimited Respawn Delay: 5 Sec Max Health: Normal Health Regen: Slow Kill Cam: Disabled Headquarters: I have not played so I don't want to give any settings for it.

Co-Op is 2 player LAN, Split Screen or Online.

Oh it has nothing to do with stats, it has to do with the unlocks. Remember this isn't like Socom you only start out with 4 guns available to you. And while the first few ranks are quick there are things like the radar jamming perk and claymores that take at least a day to get to. Not to mention I have my M4 all tricked out because I've completed all the weapons attachments for it. So it will definitely give those who have been playing all weekend a clear advantage for a few days.

Are you sure?

Nice I'll send you a game invite next time I'm online with my guys.

I don't think I could speak to their motives as to why they have "super UAV" in this game. But I do know for a fact from two conversations that I had directly with 420 after the release of COD4 that they're not interested in clans & the "hardcore". He made that pretty much clear in that conversation and then during an interview later on with 1UP on their Up Yours podcast from 2008. Where he called clans "stupid" and that "clans play the game to much so they figure out how to break it", I can look for the interview if you'd like. Combine that with "death streaks" where you're given a perk or a reward for getting your ass kicked. Those two things give me the impression that the state of the UAV is to help the noobs. Since unlocking the ColdBlooded perk which blocks UAV I have been tearing through people. I think it makes a big difference but again this is just one man's opinion based on three days worth of play...a lot can change after playing a game for a month.

Those look correct to me. I did all the pics for the UF admins, CLICK HERE.